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Gear Jammer 2011-07-30 5:52

Visualization of US Debt

ash# 2011-07-30 10:15


On topic: that's alotta money!

b0rg9 2011-07-30 11:13

I still say million dollar money drop failed because it just doesn't look like enough money. Billion dollar money drop with Bobcat frontloaders and maybe a bit of a Top Gear UK feel could be a smashing success.

Gear Jammer 2011-07-30 16:53


Originally Posted by ash# (Post 36867)

On topic: that's alotta money!

That it is, as of 30 Jul 2011 at 09:47:39 PM GMT the debt stood at $14,350,460,358,622
Estimated population of the United States is 311,029,922
So each citizen's share of this debt is $46,138.52.

Me thinks all 311million of us need to get on that Million Dollar Money Drop show pretty soon.

Chuck 2011-07-31 17:55

Since this is really about Tea Party thinking can I ask a question, is it possible to see a list of things the Tea Party think the U.S. Government should be involved in? I looked at several sites and really didn't come up with a direct answer. Not being facetious as I'm very curious.

Gear Jammer 2011-07-31 19:10

I disagree that this is really about Tea Party thinking. I'm not a Tea Party spokesmen in any way shape or form, I'm not even registered with any tea Party group, but I can see the peril that we've put ourselves in by rapidly going from the greatest lending nation on earth to the biggest debtor nation. Under GW Bush, and the Congresses of that time, we doubled our debt in 8 years. Under Obama, and the Congresses of his time, we are on pace to redouble it by the end of Obama's first term. This exponential growth of debt has to stop now. We are dangerously close to the level of debt vs national GDP that sent Greece into bankruptcy.

The Tea Party however is not of a single mind, it's thousands of small groups ranging from a few to thousands of members across the country, unifying under a single banner (Tea Party). Some of the individual groups may have ideas far afield from others, but ultimately one thing I believe that most would like to see is a return to the Congress/ government being bound to it's Constitutionally enumerated powers.

The US was originally set up to be a collection of nation states under the protection of a single defense, that being the US federal military. The individual states were to have greater power than that of the federal government, not as they are now where they have to go begging to the various federal government bureaucracies for money to finance their citizens needs, and in doing so bow to the singular mandates handed down by the federal government, that may work just fine in some areas of the country, but be insane in others. An example of this would be the federally mandated 55mph speed limit of some years back that was required to be adhered to by all the states in order to get federal money for roads. From a safety stand point it made perfect sense in a congested urban to suburban setting, but in rural areas, just silly.

Were the federal government to decrease their spending on such things, and leave it to the individual states, which all have their own redundant agencies to handle most everything the federal government does, coupled with a matching decrease in federal taxation, the states could increase their taxation to what ever level necessary to fulfill the promises they've made to their citizenry without going begging to the federal government. A state that finds it's over-promised what it can legitimately do without the begging of money from the federal government would have to restructure it's spending as well. States that find themselves in surplus, after being reduced of the burden of federal mandates could give tax cuts. States that flourish would be looked at by states that are over burdened for ideas that might work for them as well. 50 states generating, and trying different ideas, with the best ideas making their way into other states works far better than singular mandates being forced upon all 50 states by one overarching federal government.

In short, just because the federal government doesn't do something that needs doing, it doesn't mean it won't be done, if not by the States, by the County or local government, or even privately.

Ouch my fingers hurt, think I'll call it a post.

Gear Jammer 2011-07-31 19:48

Some year in the not too distant future...

ash# 2011-07-31 22:49

I am onboard with the reduce the debt train. My opinion is that it should be done in a balanced way, that includes a restructuring of the tax code(lower tax rates, fewer loopholes with a net revenue positive effect) along with spending cuts. My main problem with the republicans and the tea party is that they are inflexible to the extreme. Their way or the highway. That is not how this democracy should work. I think that Obama has taken a position where he is giving WAY more than the hardcore liberals would want. That is called compromise. I dont see that from the republicans now. I used to be a registered republican, and I worked as a staffer for two different republican members of congress. Now I am an independent who will vote for either party. In my opinion, the republicans have been hijacked by the fringe element of their party, and it is not good for the country.

Chuck 2011-08-01 5:26

I have lived my life as a moderate and always registered as an independent. Then in the past few years as I see the right wing extremists trying to take over I am becoming more and more liberal. I see insane members of congress like Ron and Rand Paul being hailed as heroes and it scares me. I see nut-jobs mentioning Ayn Rand "novels" as gospel and it scares me. As far as I can tell the only thing Ron Paul thinks is necessary for government to do is pay his salary.
We no longer live in the simple times of the eighteenth century. We, as any society needs to progressed and amazingly so in some ways. Our forefathers could not see the need for massive highways, mass communication, advances in medicine to allow for longer lives, the days when black people were not property and a million other things. Sure they only wanted a strong defense, their needs were simple as were times.
Sorry I don't want to go back to a time when life expectancy was about 45, when people could be property and when only the most wealthy could get an education.

Gear Jammer 2011-08-01 6:28

Oyvey, quite a lot of radical scare mongering there Chuck. By the way, President Obama's threat to not send out SS checks if the debt cap wasn't raised...scare mongering. It's illegal for him to block the sending out those checks. The fed government brings in roughly $200 billion a month, more than enough to cover SS, pay the military, pay the interest on the debt to avoid default, and all the other shit he scare mongered with in the last few weeks.

As far as problems are concerned, I have a problem with the President scaring old people, military (active, and retired), and others to jinn up support for ever more spending.

Also, think I'll give up on crafting well thought out long ass informational posts from here on out.
Waste of a half hour on that last one.

Chuck 2011-08-01 6:48

Not fear mongering, the Paul philosophy of voting no on anything not covered by the Constitution is why he scares me. Obviously the world is a much different place than it was when the Constitution was written. His nickname of Dr No on the Hill came from this thinking. I didn't name him that his peers did. His son is following in the same footsteps so I feel the same about him.
The Ayn Rand statement stands because her thinking of no one gets help and yet she got Social Security and Medicare in her old age. Not sure her thinking changed or she thought she was deserving while others weren't.

AsMuch 2011-08-01 19:34


Originally Posted by Gear Jammer (Post 36890)
As far as problems are concerned, I have a problem with the President scaring old people, military (active, and retired), and others to jinn up support for ever more spending.

To be fair, the money is already spent. Congress made sure of that. Obama is just on the hook because he decided to co-sign on the credit card.


Also, think I'll give up on crafting well thought out long ass informational posts from here on out.
Waste of a half hour on that last one.
I don't particularly like to comment in politics threads, because my mother taught me not to speak of politics or religion in public, but I felt compelled to respond to this particular comment.

Judging by your last sentence, it seems that you feel your time was "wasted". I appreciated your "long ass informational post", as I'm sure all of our compatriots did. It gives a sense of how you view the world. By that measure, I would suggest it was not a waste of your time.

Chuck 2011-08-01 21:23

GJ, you have upon more than one occasion pulled a drive-by tea party post to get feathers ruffled or at minimum get a response you know won't be favorable. You then act shocked and offended that many if not all of us don't agree.
Well game over from me, I will not bother to ever respond to any of this stuff again.

Gear Jammer 2011-08-01 21:58

Fuck it I give up. B9 posts a related hotly tinged rant a week back including...

"a political ideology that appears to be, in essence, "Scream 'no!', make everything stop, fight against any suggestion, fillibuster anything the other guys want while lying bald-facedly whenever convenient... then turn around and bitch about a lack of results while trying to blame the other guy for it"?...Empathy-less selfishness. Willful ignorance, and unrepentantly misinformed about the remaining. Sociopathologically hypocritical. Blindly dogmatic to beliefs in fairy tales about a country that never was."

I ignore all the flame throwing and respond in a calm friendly manor, only see more fire balls thrown by others later, and just give up on even trying to respond further. In this thread I was simply trying to present a graphic visualization of the debt, I made no derogatory comments about the left, commies, liberals or any other shit, all I did was post the fucking link. When asked for info by you Chuck about the fucking Tea Party I fucking presented it at your request. Through heated posts in this thread from some, I did my best to remain calm in my postings. So the fuck with it all then. I'll stick to fucking around in the arcade. Ya'll can have the rest of the site free from anything resembling a thought outside the leftist paradigm.

b0rg9 2011-08-02 9:58

See, the thing is, you're doing it backwards. You start off with the rant, get whatever responses you get and then end with a more reasonable dialog of points and opinions -- then someone will eventually say "both sides are bad" and the thread will die (see thread that I started that you pointed out).

This is much easier on the blood pressure, IMO and still allows the rant, whether anyone agrees with it or not or just wants to go :rolleyes: and move on.

And you're being intellectually dishonest if you say that the kleptocracy link is just some neutral post, as any quick look will show it some thing being passed around by the likes of Free Republic and various asst. right-wing blogs. That'd be like me posting a war cost ticker in 2007 and saying I was just pointing out money.

b0rg9 2011-08-02 19:55

A final thought if I may...

If you haven't noticed in the last decade+ that we've all been photoshopping on the internet, the artistic/photoshopping/creative types are pretty much all left leaning. One shouldn't be at all surprised that members here are largely of that mold.

All "political compass" surveys point me as a left-leaning libertarian. That's hardly a libby or commie or any of that sorts. In fact, I think most all of us who remain hanging around here have some sort of nuance to our views that keeps us in the real world and not that of some political pundit. I'm willing to say, without putting words in your mouth, that you hold some nuanced views as well that don't hold steadfast to the right-wing marching orders.

And to end, there's a lot in life beyond politics. Fuck, when I hang out on the model train forums you think I'm in a majority in my political beliefs? Most of those guys' feelings on Obama are between Despise and Wishing He Got Shot. But we can still talk trains. And I don't bother with political crap there because I know where the mood is. You too should know here where the mood is -- and if that's too much to go beyond and still be buds than that, imo, is really unfortunate.

AsMuch 2011-08-02 20:57

...says the man with a hitler vagina avatar.

ash# 2011-08-03 17:06

I think I saw this episode before.

Chuck 2011-08-04 5:40

I guess if nothing else I do owe an apology, I asked for a list of things the Tea Party believes the federal government should do and after reading the response once again it seems the answer is have a federal military and that is it.
So my question was actually answered and thank you GJ wherever you are for doing so.

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